A Person Who Doesn't Know What They Believe Part 2
I kept the spelling errors to make it more realistic, and to add to its authenticity.
There was more, but my computer shut down on me so I lost it. This is where we picked up once I got back on.
Frenchgal4christ [2:14 PM]: so, why did you say you wanted to talk if you are not really willing to talk
Frenchgal4christ [2:15 PM]: I am just curious what you believe, is it that hard to say, or do you not know what you believe
Just2PissYouOff [2:15 PM]: i honestly have no idea what i believe im 14 years old
Frenchgal4christ [2:15 PM]: and I am 17
Just2PissYouOff [2:15 PM]: see the difference
Frenchgal4christ [2:15 PM]: no
Just2PissYouOff [2:16 PM]: i do
Just2PissYouOff [2:16 PM]: 3 years
Frenchgal4christ [2:16 PM]: I knew what I believed at 14, I suppose I can understand, but I still curious what you have been brought up to believe, what has influenced you, will you ever believe anything, or will you at least open mindedly explore whta is out there
Just2PissYouOff [2:17 PM]: i wasnt really raised to believe anything
Frenchgal4christ [2:18 PM]: ok, so you can't tell me what you believe, but you can tell me what you base your right and wrong on, and where you got that fould language from, what your real motives are for using it
Just2PissYouOff [2:18 PM]: my real motives are pretty self explanitory
Just2PissYouOff [2:18 PM]: my sn is just2pissyouoff
Just2PissYouOff [2:18 PM]: so
Just2PissYouOff [2:18 PM]: yeah
Frenchgal4christ [2:19 PM]: but why do you want to p*** people off
Just2PissYouOff [2:19 PM]: its entertaining
Frenchgal4christ [2:19 PM]: do you feel p*** off so you wnat to bring others to that level too?
Just2PissYouOff [2:19 PM]: no
Frenchgal4christ [2:19 PM]: entertainment does not make it right
Just2PissYouOff [2:19 PM]: its just sorta fun to make ppl mad
Frenchgal4christ [2:19 PM]: would you have them do the same to you
Just2PissYouOff [2:20 PM]: i wouldnt really care
Frenchgal4christ [2:21 PM]: do you care about anything, because other people to care, thats why they get mad
Frenchgal4christ [2:21 PM]: and others don't get mad
Just2PissYouOff [2:21 PM]: i just think its funny how mad ppl can get over something so minor
Frenchgal4christ [2:21 PM]: they think you are "stupid," which I doubt is true
Just2PissYouOff [2:21 PM]: idk
Just2PissYouOff [2:22 PM]: maybe i am
Just2PissYouOff [2:22 PM]: but i dont really care what they thing
Frenchgal4christ [2:22 PM]: no one is stupid
Just2PissYouOff [2:22 PM]: think
Frenchgal4christ [2:22 PM]: you should care - why don't you care?
Frenchgal4christ [2:22 PM]: you will need to care when you go to college and get a job
Just2PissYouOff [2:23 PM]: because there just saying stuff cuz there mad and i dont care because i dont know them and there opinion doesnt matter to me
Frenchgal4christ [2:23 PM]: independance is a good thing, but ut should not be taken too far
Frenchgal4christ [2:23 PM]: do you think everyone should be open-minded
Just2PissYouOff [2:23 PM]: i care about others opinions just not ppls opinions who i dont know
Just2PissYouOff [2:24 PM]: no
Just2PissYouOff [2:24 PM]: i think every1 should have a balance between open mindedness and being close minded
Frenchgal4christ [2:24 PM]: what makes the opinions of those you don't know any different from those of people you do know - opinions are opinions
Just2PissYouOff [2:24 PM]: well
Just2PissYouOff [2:25 PM]: i respect the ppl i know i like to know what the care about not some random person
Frenchgal4christ [2:25 PM]: what if that random person deserves just as much respect, you can't know without truly going in to their life
Frenchgal4christ [2:25 PM]: and still what do you base all this on?
Just2PissYouOff [2:26 PM]: idk
Frenchgal4christ [2:26 PM]: are you a relativist?
Frenchgal4christ [2:26 PM]: idk?
Frenchgal4christ [2:26 PM]: oh, i dont care
Just2PissYouOff [2:26 PM]: its just kinda the way i think
Frenchgal4christ [2:26 PM]: so you believe that right and wrong are based on self
Just2PissYouOff [2:26 PM]: sure
Frenchgal4christ [2:28 PM]: but what if one person believes that it is OK to kill, but the person they are about to kill believes it is wrong, who is right?
Just2PissYouOff [2:28 PM]: obviously the person being killed
Frenchgal4christ [2:28 PM]: if everyone based their right and wrong on self, everything owuld be contradictory, it would be chaos, there would be no absolute truth
Frenchgal4christ [2:29 PM]: thats what you say, but the person doing the killing is basing his right and wrong on himself, so wouldn't he be equally right
Just2PissYouOff [2:29 PM]: yeah but atleast every1 would have control over their own life
Frenchgal4christ [2:30 PM]: not if someone killed them first - can you imagine a world of chaos where there is no truth but your own truth so there are no rules and nothing is truly right or wrong
Just2PissYouOff [2:31 PM]: id rather believe what i want to even if it is wrong rather than be told what to believe
Frenchgal4christ [2:31 PM]: no one tells you what to believe in this world, they may suiggest it, but that does not mean that you have to believe it
Frenchgal4christ [2:32 PM]: still, if a person believes that the sky is red, does that make it red
Just2PissYouOff [2:32 PM]: to them it would be
Frenchgal4christ [2:32 PM]: but that does not make it true
Frenchgal4christ [2:32 PM]: A dialogue on relativism
Just2PissYouOff [2:33 PM]: no
Just2PissYouOff [2:33 PM]: your a christian
Just2PissYouOff [2:33 PM]: right
Frenchgal4christ [2:33 PM]: yes
Just2PissYouOff [2:33 PM]: do you consider yourself to be devoted to christianity
Just2PissYouOff [2:33 PM]: ?
Frenchgal4christ [2:34 PM]: in a way yes, there is not perfect devotion though
Frenchgal4christ [2:34 PM]: no one can be perfect
Frenchgal4christ [2:34 PM]: but I can do my best to follow the Bible and believe in Christ as my savior
Just2PissYouOff [2:35 PM]: see you have no beliefs of your own you just read the bible and all that stuff and agree
Frenchgal4christ [2:36 PM]: it is not like I believe because I was brought up to believe, I can do my own investigating and come to believe it
Frenchgal4christ [2:37 PM]: like I said before, if you want in depth explanation as to why Christians believe what they believe, then you can read books on it, and I recommend Lee Strobel's books
Just2PissYouOff [2:38 PM]: i notice you didnt denie not having your own beliefs
Frenchgal4christ [2:38 PM]: I do have my own beliefs that I draw from the Bible because that is the absolute truth
Just2PissYouOff [2:39 PM]: or so you think
Frenchgal4christ [2:39 PM]: I know what I believe, I do not think it
Just2PissYouOff [2:40 PM]: you say you get your beliefs from the bible thats not exactly original beliefs
Frenchgal4christ [2:40 PM]: because the original of all originals is God who created the earth in 7 days
Frenchgal4christ [2:40 PM]: you can't go any further back than that
Just2PissYouOff [2:41 PM]: yeah but you cant know for sure that god created earth in 7 days
Frenchgal4christ [2:41 PM]: the Bible tells me so
Just2PissYouOff [2:41 PM]: right
Frenchgal4christ [2:41 PM]: if you want prood of that read the books I suggested
Frenchgal4christ [2:42 PM]: proof*
Just2PissYouOff [2:42 PM]: your beliefs tell you that god created earth but that doesnt make it true
Frenchgal4christ [2:42 PM]: the Bible has been continually confirmed by archeological finds and other things
Just2PissYouOff [2:42 PM]: ok you think that
Frenchgal4christ [2:43 PM]: i know that
Just2PissYouOff [2:43 PM]: prove that its true
Frenchgal4christ [2:44 PM]: Bible
Just2PissYouOff [2:44 PM]: lmao
Frenchgal4christ [2:45 PM]: i would never be able to explain it to the full 0 if you really want to know the truth, explore it and read those books I recommended
Frenchgal4christ [2:46 PM]: I can never force you to believe anything, I can't even really try, but you can try to learn for yoursefl rather than argue before looking at the facts yoruself
Just2PissYouOff [2:46 PM]: mhm
Frenchgal4christ [2:46 PM]: mhm?
Just2PissYouOff [2:47 PM]: mhm
Frenchgal4christ [2:47 PM]: whats that mean
Just2PissYouOff [2:47 PM]: that ill do some investigating read the bible maybe and get back to you on that
Just2PissYouOff [2:47 PM]: ok
Frenchgal4christ [2:48 PM]: Defending the Bible
Frenchgal4christ [2:48 PM]: http://www.carm.org/ has some good explanations on it
Just2PissYouOff [2:48 PM]: ok
Frenchgal4christ [2:49 PM]: Isn't the Bible scientifically inaccurate?
The Bible is not a book about science, but when it does speak scientifically, it is accurate. In fact, it was far ahead of any other writing of its time. Please consider the following.
The Shape of the Earth
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22, NIV).
Frenchgal4christ [2:49 PM]:
This may or may not be construed to support the spherical shape of the earth. The horizon is a circle and a circle is flat.
The Earth is suspended in nothing
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job. 26:7, NIV).
This is particularly interesting considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.
The Stars are Innumerable
"He took him outside
Frenchgal4christ [2:49 PM]:
and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be," (Gen. 15:5, NIV).
The Existence of Valleys in the Seas
"The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils," (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV).
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]:
The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened," (Gen. 7:11, NIV). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]:
The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas
"O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV).
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]:
The Hydrologic Cycle
"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job. 26:8, NIV).
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind," (Job. 36:27-28, NIV)
"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there th
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]:
The Concept of Entropy
"In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded," (Psalm 102:22-26, NIV).
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]:
The Nature of Health, Sanitation, and Sickness
The listing for this section is too large for this page. But the scriptural references are Leviticus 12-14.
Frenchgal4christ [2:50 PM]: these are all taken from the site I mentioned
Just2PissYouOff [2:50 PM]: ok
Frenchgal4christ [2:51 PM]: Extra biblical accounts of Jesus
Frenchgal4christ [2:51 PM]: Archaeological Evidence verifying biblical cities
Frenchgal4christ [2:53 PM]: Proof, I want proof
Frenchgal4christ [2:53 PM]: I have to go now, but get back to me by email if you want - take your time - I am not going to push you
Just2PissYouOff [2:54 PM]: ok
Just2PissYouOff [2:54 PM]: ok
Auto response from Frenchgal4christ [2:54 PM]: I am away from my computer right now.
Just2PissYouOff is away at 2:55 PM
Just2PissYouOff returned at 3:04 PM
Frenchgal4christ [3:17 PM]: How can you trust a book that is nothing but myth?
Frenchgal4christ [3:18 PM]: Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document?
Frenchgal4christ [3:18 PM]: Is the Bible Reliable?
Frenchgal4christ [3:18 PM]: Hasn't the Bible been rewritten so many times that we can't trust it
Frenchgal4christ [3:18 PM]: Evidence and Answers
I wonder if he or she (I am not sure which) will really research or if they just said that to get me to stop. there was not much else I could say. I fyou have any ideas let me know, but I think it is just up to God now to work at their heart.
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2 comments:
Hi I just wanted to comment on the back and forth thinghy you had going on here.
I will only speak for myself..but in that I speak for many other people that have searched for answers but never found them in the conventional teachings of the bible.
The one thing that is so important to remember is that certain things speak to certain people.
For me the bible didn't cut it. I could not relate it to the reality of my own humanity, it just didn't make sense.
For years I struggled with the concept of God or a higher power. Because it was sort of laid out that religons in general seemed to have "exclusive" rights to God.
I had to take my own journey through life, re-define what kind of a God I wanted..and ultimatly the Loving and caring higher power I choose to call God came into my life.
It's easy to tell people what they should or should not do. To ask them to be what we want. But in the end it just keeps us all seperated from each other.
Some people don't buy into the whole bible thing..and thats ok for them...always remember in any sitaution ask yourself....
What would God do...
preach or just love.
I believe in objective truth. From the late 1930's to 1945, Germans followed leaders who exterminated millions of people for having Hebrew, Christian Gypsy, homosexual, or genetic anomalies. Our knowledge of history is subject to distortion, error, mystery, or correction, but history itself does not change. I can pick and choose my interpretation of history, and I can even choose to deceive myself through selective acceptance of the facts; but what I believe does not affect the past.
The search for God resembles the investigation of history. If a transcendent, personal God exists, then God exists as an objective truth. What I pick and choose to believe doesn't affect God's attributes. We should search, therefore, not for an imaginary god who fits our specifications, but for the God Who Is. For example, do we imagine a "loving" god who lacks holiness? Do we imagine a merciful god who ignores justice? Or do we conjure a god who can function as a personal magician-in-the-sky, yet cannot create the Earth, life, and mankind? Doing so, we would betray ourselves as surely as would the leader of the worst counterfeit cult. We must follow the trail through whatever ground it leads, not just to whatever appeals to us. So the first ingredient in a search for God must be honesty, a willingness to submit to the truth, however unappealing it might be to us.
The comparison of investigating history to searching for God fails, however, where the heart comes into play. MightyMorgan correctly sought a personal connection. What good does a commitment to a religion do if the commitment exists only on an intellectual plane? Paul referred to such a losers when he said "knowledge puffs up;" it inflates the ego by giving a sense of accomplishment or the pride of acquisition; but it has no positive value. Practical religion must apply to life, to one's heart. The search becomes, ultimately, a search for a relationship. At the least, we seek an example to follow; at best, we seek a loving Provider-protector with Whom we can interact. Unfortunately, love and protection both require instruction and correction. Submission to truths whose basis we fail to grasp returns as a barrier. Just as we must submit to the truth, we must submit to instruction, correction, and even commission, if we seek a personal, relevant God with any integrity. The kingdom of heaven, to put it another way, is not a democracy; it is a family whose Leader has the right to train and to give assignments according to His own grand purpose.
"[C]ertain things speak to certain people." Indeed. As an English-speaking resident of Mexifornia, I've learned that you can speak to people only if they know your language. The literary approach of the Bible doesn't all come naturally to our Western mind set. The accumulation of knowledge about the biblical God's attributes took millennia. Only a few people who diligently seek God encounter Him; many of those people wait a lifetime for their encounters, and for others, one or two encounters have to last them a lifetime. Despite this, though all the silence, an undercurrent exists, God quietly moving mankind toward a great reconciliation. The New Testament reveals how some of the driest details of the Old Testament reveal that quiet evidence of God's involvement. God's language consists more often of action than of ideas.
Learning any language takes persistence. My daughter studied French, but it had no relevance to her and she has lost the skills she had learned. Soon, she will study Spanish, which has relevance in Mexifornia; but if she does not accept that relevance or does not diligently apply herself to its study, it, too, will fail to become part of her life. Her attitude does not diminish the value of learning Spanish when she lives in a state that Latinos will dominate within a few decades. Failure to see something's relevance does not render it irrelevant; but it can render one deaf.
Just as importantly, as a father and husband, I've also leaned one lesson that saturates the Old Testament: You can speak to people only if they listen. More precisely, people will benefit from your speech only if they listen. Again, failure to submit one's time and attention forms the primary barrier. Many non-Christians have accused me of being "closed-minded;" but in actuality, as a self-sufficient agnostic, I had to open my mind to become a Christian.
The subject of open minds brings me to a final point. Calvinistic faith holds that we do not open our own minds. Rather, God's Holy Spirit illuminates our minds. Spiritual things, Paul says, are spiritually discerned; and to the natural mind, they are foolishness. Even mature, experienced Christians appeal to God for understanding before reading the Scriptures.
The bottom line: For anyone seeking relevance in the Bible, persistence, willingness to submit to whatever one finds, and diligent appeals for enlightenment from God are essential tools to finding the relevance of the Bible, and to finding that elusive personal relationship with God.
Of course, it helps to have somebody provide the introductions.
-- Poorhouse Dad
I believe in objective truth. From the late 1930's to 1945, Germans followed leaders who exterminated millions of people for having Hebrew, Christian Gypsy, homosexual, or genetic anomalies. Our knowledge of history is subject to distortion, error, mystery, or correction, but history itself does not change. I can pick and choose my interpretation of history, and I can even choose to deceive myself through selective acceptance of the facts; but what I believe does not affect the past.
The search for God resembles the investigation of history. If a transcendent, personal God exists, then God exists as an objective truth. What I pick and choose to believe doesn't affect God's attributes. We should search, therefore, not for an imaginary god who fits our specifications, but for the God Who Is. For example, do we imagine a "loving" god who lacks holiness? Do we imagine a merciful god who ignores justice? Or do we conjure a god who can function as a personal magician-in-the-sky, yet cannot create the Earth, life, and mankind? Doing so, we would betray ourselves as surely as would the leader of the worst counterfeit cult. We must follow the trail through whatever ground it leads, not just to whatever appeals to us. So the first ingredient in a search for God must be honesty, a willingness to submit to the truth, however unappealing it might be to us.
The comparison of investigating history to searching for God fails, however, where the heart comes into play. MightyMorgan correctly sought a personal connection. What good does a commitment to a religion do if the commitment exists only on an intellectual plane? Paul referred to such a losers when he said "knowledge puffs up;" it inflates the ego by giving a sense of accomplishment or the pride of acquisition; but it has no positive value. Practical religion must apply to life, to one's heart. The search becomes, ultimately, a search for a relationship. At the least, we seek an example to follow; at best, we seek a loving Provider-protector with Whom we can interact. Unfortunately, love and protection both require instruction and correction. Submission to truths whose basis we fail to grasp returns as a barrier. Just as we must submit to the truth, we must submit to instruction, correction, and even commission, if we seek a personal, relevant God with any integrity. The kingdom of heaven, to put it another way, is not a democracy; it is a family whose Leader has the right to train and to give assignments according to His own grand purpose.
"[C]ertain things speak to certain people." Indeed. As an English-speaking resident of Mexifornia, I've learned that you can speak to people only if they know your language. The literary approach of the Bible doesn't all come naturally to our Western mind set. The accumulation of knowledge about the biblical God's attributes took millennia. Only a few people who diligently seek God encounter Him; many of those people wait a lifetime for their encounters, and for others, one or two encounters have to last them a lifetime. Despite this, though all the silence, an undercurrent exists, God quietly moving mankind toward a great reconciliation. The New Testament reveals how some of the driest details of the Old Testament reveal that quiet evidence of God's involvement. God's language consists more often of action than of ideas.
Learning any language takes persistence. My daughter studied French, but it had no relevance to her and she has lost the skills she had learned. Soon, she will study Spanish, which has relevance in Mexifornia; but if she does not accept that relevance or does not diligently apply herself to its study, it, too, will fail to become part of her life. Her attitude does not diminish the value of learning Spanish when she lives in a state that Latinos will dominate within a few decades. Failure to see something's relevance does not render it irrelevant; but it can render one deaf.
Just as importantly, as a father and husband, I've also leaned one lesson that saturates the Old Testament: You can speak to people only if they listen. More precisely, people will benefit from your speech only if they listen. Again, failure to submit one's time and attention forms the primary barrier. Many non-Christians have accused me of being "closed-minded;" but in actuality, as a self-sufficient agnostic, I had to open my mind to become a Christian.
The subject of open minds brings me to a final point. Calvinistic faith holds that we do not open our own minds. Rather, God's Holy Spirit illuminates our minds. Spiritual things, Paul says, are spiritually discerned; and to the natural mind, they are foolishness. Even mature, experienced Christians appeal to God for understanding before reading the Scriptures.
The bottom line: For anyone seeking relevance in the Bible, persistence, willingness to submit to whatever one finds, and diligent appeals for enlightenment from God are essential tools to finding the relevance of the Bible, and to finding that elusive personal relationship with God.
Of course, it helps to have somebody provide the introductions.
-- Poorhouse Dad
http://poorhousedad.blogspot.com/
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